[Everyone] Rental Issue: Process for Deliberation

Tue Sep 20 12:42:19 UTC 2022

just an observation:  I believe it's possible to restrict owners in terms
of whether and for how long and on what terms we rent.  I think it's far
more difficult to restrict to whom selling rights.  And I believe that's
the only way to limit commercial investors.  Also, it's a much more onerous
limitation on ownership rights to restrict selling rights, as opposed to
restrict rental rights.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 9:01 PM Jordan Sharon via Everyone <
everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:

> I’m on the same page with Maryann as I also don’t have enough experience
> surrounding these matters to add anything new. I also agree with many of
> the points made by Melanie, Kathleen/Ron and Molly. It seems the common
> thread here is we all want to protect CP from commercial investors that
> could have a negative impact on our community and agree that should be the
> primary focus. I tend to disagree on placing a cap on private owners
> renting, especially in a roommate type situation. However I am willing to
> hear the pros and cons on both sides of the matter so as to make a more
> educated decision.
>
> - Jordan
>
>
> On Sep 19, 2022, at 8:13 PM, Maryann Dabkowski via Everyone <
> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all-
>
> I've been hanging back on commenting because I felt some ignorance around
> the issue and didn't want to add an uneducated opinion. I've been listening
> and reading all week, and don't really have much to add at this point that
> hasn't already been said. I do think it's important to be an active
> participant in the community, so I wanted to express my agreement with some
> points made by Melanie, Molly, and others. I tend to agree on exploring
> some guardrails for renting and determining if there is a way to prevent
> commercial investors.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 1:14 PM Molly Pastin via Everyone <
> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>
>> I’ve not had the time this week to jot down cohesive thoughts here but
>> Ron has summarized mine quite well. Some additional food for thought:
>>
>> - while I disagree with placing a cap, there are creative ways to
>> integrate elements to reduce risk of negative impact of rentals (fees for
>> owners in reasonable circumstances, caps on rental years, min time an owner
>> must live in home before renting)
>> - what I think every person on this chain has in common: lack of desire
>> to have commercial investors come in - that is the root I’m deducing we can
>> easily come together to tackle
>> - if there is no issue today, why make this devise topic front and center
>> when we can address the more common concern around commercial investors?
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 11:08 AM Sara Crews via Everyone <
>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The only problem our HOA ever experienced with tenants was in the late
>>> 80s when the owners of #402 divorced,  both moved to different states,  and
>>> they rented it to 5 college students.
>>> Sara
>>>
>>> On 09/16/2022 6:47 PM Ronald Baggett via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you Melanie!  I think you summed up my thoughts on this issue as
>>> well.  One of the most disturbing aspects of American life today is the
>>> housing inequities that have taken safe affordable housing away from so
>>> many in our communities. I would like to see what if anything we can do to
>>> prevent corporate ownership of Chelsea Place homes for investment rentals.
>>> At the same time I would like owners to have the availability to offer an
>>> affordable rental space in our community. Be that as a border using a room
>>> or renting a unit.
>>> In my experience what makes a good neighbor has little to do with if
>>> they own or rent.  I would be more open to adopting a code of expectations
>>> for owners to maintain if they do rent. I believe most renters agree to
>>> terms of behavior when they sign a contract. It would be the owners
>>> responsibility to enforce compliance.
>>> I can not see myself agreeing to limit rental options of private owners
>>> during the present housing crisis our community is experiencing. I would be
>>> interested if there is a way to legally keep corporate investors from
>>> buying our properties to exploit the housing crisis.
>>> Would it be of benefit to create a list of expectations and
>>> responsibilities of renters to be included in all rental contracts used by
>>> Chelsea Place owners who do rent? We could also make a document that
>>> clarifies the expectations and responsibilities of owners when renting.
>>> This would address the issues of retaining the physical upkeep and
>>> presentation of our properties while preserving the ability of owners to
>>> offer affordable safe housing to those who need it.
>>> Ron
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2022, at 14:15, melanie davenport via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, that's true Sara, you are grandfathered, and similarly, I believe
>>> any proposed changes to bylaws would also not impact current owners.  In
>>> addition to the general application of grandfathering, there is a specific
>>> item in the code that says if a community amends its covenants in order
>>> to restrict leasing, and if a house in the community is *already* being
>>> leased at the time the amendment is recorded, the owner of that house can
>>> continue to lease the house until ownership of the house is transferred to
>>> a new owner.  (Georgia Property Owners’ Association Act,  Code Section
>>> 44-3-226)
>>>
>>> I absolutely agree, Nobody wants a party house next door, and though
>>> it's unlikely any current owner wants their own property values diminished
>>> by renting it to people who disrespect their property, there is no
>>> guarantee that future owners, particularly corporate investor types, would
>>> share that sentiment...  I understand the desire to preempt any possibility
>>> of that happening, and wonder if there is any other way to specifically bar
>>> the type of investment buyers that are ruining the housing markets across
>>> the country?
>>>
>>> I would like to suggest that in this conversation, Chelsea Place owners
>>> should also consider the possible negative outcomes that could arise at
>>> some point in future from a strict rental restriction policy.  For example,
>>> we know that life can bring unexpected challenges; at some point, someone
>>> may need to live abroad for work or move back home to care for a parent,
>>> with plans to someday return to their beloved townhome.  If this happens to
>>> more than one neighbor at the same time, and if a 10% limit has been
>>> added to the covenants, who is going to make the judgement on which
>>> neighbor is and which neighbor is not allowed to rent their unit?
>>>
>>> Just weighing in,
>>> best,
>>> mel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 2:38 PM Sara Crews via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> When I first began renting out my downstairs in 1993, I'm fairly certain
>>> that Georgia had on its books a grandfather clause.  It may still be in
>>> effect; and if so, aren't we wasting  a lot of time discussing my property?
>>>
>>> Sara
>>>
>>> On 09/16/2022 10:59 AM Vincent Wimbush <vlwimbush at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I am pleased we are having respectful discussion about some of the
>>> issues. Again, it is important for all or as many as are able to weigh in.
>>> (I generally prefer to discuss situations and issues apart from
>>> referencing individuals, but it seems this may not always work.)
>>>
>>> A few more thoughts:
>>>
>>> I do not recall that it was decided that Sara's rental situation was off
>>> the table for discussion--in re: rental issues. It seems to me that that
>>> situation must not be automatically set aside or taken off the table for
>>> discussion because it is different from Unit 412 (Mel's owner-absentee
>>> rental). It is the case that what is involved with Sara is a contractual
>>> rental situation with someone. If we collectively decide that this
>>> arrangement is fine it needs to be stated as such. And further it needs to
>>> be stated that until or unless we clearly add agreed upon restrictions
>>> (with respect to both arrangements) *all other owners should have the
>>> same opportunity or right to engage in the same kind of contract*. Is
>>> this what we want?
>>>
>>> I am wanting to make it clear that I have super sensitivity to the
>>> matter of fairness. So unless we state that a particular arrangement is
>>> unusual and is not to be repeated or is to be henceforth restricted in some
>>> respect(s), we have to face the reality (of the potential) that any (even
>>> all) current or future owners can do the same (as what obtains with Mel and
>>> Sara). I find it very problematic to support the current arrangements
>>> without making it clear that any and all current and future owners can do
>>> the same. Is this what we want?
>>>
>>> Re: suggested percentage--assuming we do little beyond agreeing to a
>>> particular percentage of rentals, I ask, by whose authority? By what or
>>> whose wisdom of experience? Is this what other townhomes/condos are
>>> allowing? With what success? With what lingering problems or issues? Do we
>>> think we need not do anything now because there are no serious problems?
>>> The problem is precisely that we have no clear statement of agreement
>>> around these matters.
>>>
>>> I think it is assumed by some that owner-occupied rental is without
>>> problems. Or issues. I do not know. Maybe. But again, perhaps we've simply
>>> been lucky to date. It is not hard to imagine a different situation with
>>> different parties involved.  We ought to think hard about what such a
>>> situation might mean beyond the one instance we know about.
>>>
>>> vlw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vincent L. Wimbush, Ph.D.
>>> Director
>>> Institute for Signifying Scriptures
>>> signifyingscriptures.org
>>> vincentwimbush.com
>>> 626-864-1357
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2022 at 10:10 AM Sara Crews <sara408 at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good morning, Vincent.  I think it would be a rare situation for a
>>> roommate to live in a residence or apartment without paying something
>>> toward household expenses, i.e. my grandson has two roommates in his home,
>>> and they equally share in costs of utilities and a portion of the
>>> mortgage.
>>>
>>> Sara
>>>
>>> On 09/15/2022 6:08 PM Vincent Wimbush via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand the mystery about what a "rental" is. If an
>>> owner--either living in-house or in absentia--asks another or other persons
>>> (even a family) to pay a specified amount on a regular basis for staying in
>>> part of a unit or in the entirety of one of the units, this is a rental
>>> situation. (I do not understand the concept of "roommate" in this context
>>> of discussion.)
>>>
>>> One may want to support the case of a live-in owner renting part of the
>>> unit. But we should not kid ourselves that in this situation--or one in
>>> which it can be imagined in the future that several persons may be
>>> contracted to rent space in one unit--that there are not important quality
>>> of life and related issues or challenges to be considered--by all of us.
>>> Among them--increase in noise, foot and automobile traffic. And of course
>>> there are other challenges and issues that can and ought to be named.
>>>
>>> Allowing/restricting a number of possible rental arrangements should be
>>> debated and considered. But no number or arrangement should be
>>> automatically accepted. Also, we should all of us have some sense of the
>>> terms on which rentals are arranged. One immediate reaction among us today
>>> might be indifference, that such arrangements are nobody else's business
>>> beyond the particular owner. We are in discussion about the issues at this
>>> time because we have gone through some changes lately that threatened
>>> another rental situation; and we may face more threats in the near future
>>> if we do not come to some agreement. In addition, some of us
>>> think sensitivity to the quality of life here for the rest of us is
>>> appropriate with any possible arrangements allowed. How best to translate
>>> that sensitivity into agreement is what is before us.
>>>
>>> We currently have among us two rental arrangements. Perhaps, we have so
>>> far simply been lucky. Apart from occasional issues having to do with trash
>>> and trash bins left on the sidewalk, unattractive street view (of front
>>> window), and so forth, there have not been (to my knowledge) major
>>> persistent issues with major impact on the rest of us. Should we assume
>>> that without the clearest agreed upon statement we shall always be lucky?
>>>
>>> vlw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 4:54 PM Kathleen M. Baggett via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Sara. I would like us to define “rental”. Does this include
>>> roommates who are paying rent? To me this is quite different from an
>>> absentee owner who is renting. I am not at all a fan of commercial buyers
>>> who then rent.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Kathleen M. Baggett*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Everyone <everyone-bounces at chelseaplacedecatur.com> on behalf
>>> of Sara Crews via Everyone <everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 2:06 PM
>>> *To: *Residents <everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com>
>>> *Cc: *Sara Crews <sara408 at comcast.net>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Everyone] Rental Issue: Process for Deliberation
>>>
>>> Good afternoon, Vincent.  I just re-read my earlier response to your
>>> first email concerning rental issues and found a typo.  Rather than 1%, it
>>> should have read 10%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FYI - I spoke with my daughter, Sabra, who has been a realtor for many
>>> years, about your email to see if she might shed some light on rental
>>> issues for townhomes.  Sabra was unaware of townhome rental issues;
>>> however, she has sold a number of condominiums, and the bylaws cap rental
>>> properties at 10%.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sara
>>>
>>> On 09/14/2022 4:58 PM Vincent Wimbush via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings to all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I send here a reminder re: open forum on CP rental issue. All have
>>> opportunity and safe space to weigh in. Weighing in is important so that
>>> there is as much clarity as possible about where things stand among us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I do not want to put too heavily my fingers on the scale; I really want
>>> to facilitate conversation. Position on the issue need not be considered a
>>> matter of personal attack or support. Focus on the issue and what it means
>>> for our shared interests is important.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Allow me to try one approach that may help some think more and weigh on
>>> the matter. It's a risky comparison, but here goes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Our national political trauma being played out shows us that no set of
>>> written laws/agreements can ever cover all contingencies or
>>> situations, anticipate all types of psychoses on the part of leaders....
>>> Without a broadly-shared collective sense among individuals thinking
>>> themselves bound to one another, in a sense, owing certain things to one
>>> another--without that sense no rules or law-writers' work will ever cover
>>> everything to insure collective well-being.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now to CP, one way we might think of the rental issue--and frankly,
>>> almost all issues we may confront, from upkeep of properties, sensitivity
>>> to noises made, the way one property presents itself to the outside, and so
>>> forth--is to think in terms of what we owe each other. (Peace? Being left
>>> alone? Assurance of a pleasant, beautiful environment? Doing one's part to
>>> keep values rising?)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is rental of one's property relevant to this way of thinking? How might
>>> one rental or proliferation of rentals affect the other(s)? Absentee
>>> ownership presents some obvious challenges. What are some of these
>>> challenges? Is the owner-absentee rental situation the only rental issue
>>> that affects the rest of us? What might an increase in either type of
>>> rental situation mean for the rest of us?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, some rules may be written to cover most of what may make us
>>> anxious today. But they will not cover all types of situations or
>>> ideas....(I am not sure I would be as attracted to CP if I had discovered
>>> at the beginning that there were several rental situations here...)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So I do want to raise again as a framing or guiding question--what do we
>>> assume we owe one another? How  does this assumption get translated in the
>>> way we comport ourselves in all respects and situations, the way we live so
>>> interconnected with one another?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What might this mean for the issue on  the floor for discussion and
>>> consideration?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> vlw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 11:06 AM Sara Crews <sara408 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you,  Vincent.   I totally agree with this approach.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From my perspective,  the number of rentals within our small complex
>>> should be limited to 1%.  Since I reside in my home,  it should not be
>>> counted as a rental but as a roommate situation - just my opinion,  but
>>> certainly am open to everyone's thoughts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sara
>>>
>>> On 09/01/2022 10:30 AM Vincent Wimbush via Everyone <
>>> everyone at chelseaplacedecatur.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greetings to all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You may recall that at our last meeting we briefly discussed the matter
>>> of rental of units. (Reference last posted minutes.) We established a
>>> committee to look into the matter. The committee has researched HOA
>>> documents in order to help us find clarity regarding the situation. The
>>> documents available have not resulted in clarifying matters. The committee
>>> agreed that consultation with legal professionals who work with HOAs is
>>> needed in order to help us clarify for our times CP HOA position on the
>>> issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But before consultation with legal professionals is pursued we want to
>>> make sure there is a clear sense of the current owners about matters. So we
>>> propose the following process for consideration:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1/ Open Online Discussion--for a period of 21 days (beginning September
>>> 1, 2022). All are welcome and encouraged to share--on multiple occasions,
>>> if you like; on a range of issues/questions of importance--views in re:
>>> matters having to do with rental of CP TownHomes. Courtesy and respect are
>>> expected.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2/ At or near the end of the Open Discussion and based on issues raised
>>> the committee will devise a simple poll to which all will be asked to
>>> respond. This poll will allow us to make the collective position more
>>> pointed or specific.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3/ Based on the responses to the poll a statement will be composed that
>>> will seek to reflect the views of the majority, if not all, of the owners.
>>> As owners--one per unit--we will have the opportunity to vote yes or no in
>>> re: proposed statement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The deliberation and making of statement of agreement process will end
>>> as soon as is reasonable for all.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope all of you will accept this proposal and its protocols and will
>>> be willing to weigh in and participate in the deliberations during the
>>> proposed period.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is an important matter that goes to the heart of assumptions about
>>> what we are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your cooperation and participation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With receipt of this message, the floor is open to the sharing of views
>>> and opinions in re: Rental of Units at CP.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vincent L. Wimbush
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> Associate Professor of Art Education
>>> Georgia State University
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>>> 404-413-5260
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-- 
Lauren Rich
Atlanta, GA
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